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john555Fri May-01-20 05:49 PM
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"Time Periods of Novels"


          

Has anyone ever noticed that the time periods for the Sackett stories given in "The Sackett Companion" do not match up too well with the time periods as given in the books themselves? For instance, "The Sackett Companion" gives the period for "The Daybreakers" as 1870 to 1872. In chapter 3 of the book, LL has Tyrel tell the reader "in 1867, the Santa Fe Trail was an old trail." Later, in chapter 14, Tyrel is talking with Tom Sunday and responds to Tom's comment on how long they have known each other with "five years". This all indicates that the Time Period of "The Daybreakers" is 1867 to 1872. My guess for the errors is that LL enjoyed writing the tales a lot more than re-reading them to check dates. (Thank God!) But it can affect the chronological order of the stories for those interested in such.

Justintime

  

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epeterdSat May-02-20 07:22 AM
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#1. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I kinda figured it was more just a general idea, than a definite time for most of them. I don't remember that most of them had anything where you could put a definite date, but it's been a few years since I've read them. I need to read them again sometime soon.

peter

  

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john555Sat May-02-20 11:23 AM
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#2. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 1


          

I did that myself. Mainly because it just gave me a reason to read them all again. I found there were different things that gave an indication of the date. And, nearly all of them have something in them to indicate a date or where they fit. In "Sackett's Land", Barnabas tells the reader in chapter 1 that the year is 1599. In "Ride the River", LL tells the reader that James White, the shyster lawyer had an annual income that was a good income for 1840. LL sprinkled these things throughout the books. The one book that I found most difficult to peg was "Mustang Man". The commonly used order for "Mustang Man" seems to be after "Mojave Crossing" and "The Sackett Brand". I think the natural order for "Mustang Man" is actually before "Sackett" for two reasons. In Chapter 15 of "Mustang Man", Nolan has a conversation with Ollie Shaddock in which Ollie mentions Tyrel and Orrin. Nolan responds that he does not know them but has heard of them. Tye, Orrin, and Nolan all came together at the final shootout in "Sackett's Brand". So "Mustang Man" has to be before that. And Nolan does not mention knowing Tell which would be odd unless the book is before "Mojave Crossing". And, the reason I would place it before "Sackett" is because in chapter 14, Nolan negotiates a horse swap where he tells the camp riders he is headed for Mora to visit relatives. The riders say they have heard of the Sacketts of Mora but do not refer to Tye as the Mora gunfighter. He became known as the Mora gunfighter because of his shootout with Tom Sunday at the end of "The Daybreakers" in 1872. But here's another of what I consider good questions. What makes a book a Sackett book? LL wrote in "The Sackett Companion" about a separate series for Talons and one for Chantrys. But the many interactions with the Sacketts make that virtually impossible. So, then you can add them to the chronological order for an even more interesting list. I know some of this is just conjecture but most of it is how LL wrote it.

Justintime

  

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blamourSat May-02-20 12:17 PM
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#3. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 2


          

In reading these books we have to be careful not to have expectations higher than LL had for himself. It is totally true, Dad liked writing better than rereading. It is also true that fans often have higher expectation for Dad's "historical accuracy" than he did himself. My father wrote three books or more a year. He lived and worked in a house crowded with two kids, a wife, two dogs, a bird, and sometimes a housekeeper. He kept a journal, documented his work outs, and kept up a lively correspondence with people all over the world.

He studied history, but he did not check his work. He used history as a back drop and as inspiration for his work but he was an entertainer not a slave to accuracy. These same issues played out when referencing his own work.

It is also important to know that, at least until the late 1970s, he never expected his books to remain in print. Most authors of paperback originals saw their books disappear from existence, go out of print, within months of their release. "The backlist" a publishing term for an author's old titles, was something that barely existed for middle of the road genre authors in those days. For example it was commonly thought (and likely true) that only the movies kept Ian Fleming's James Bond novels on the shelves, while his Chitty-chitty Bang Bang was a perennial (at least for awhile) because it was aimed at generations of kids.

So worrying too much about what you had written, even in a series, was thought to be a bit of a waste of time ... at the time. It is also true that editorial standards were pretty lax. Today it is impossible for the publisher to keep an editor employed (given that they can't just work on the L'Amour books) long enough for them to even read the whole catalog, let alone become familiar enough to remember the details. That's where I come in. In those days Dad dealt with a senior editor on the big issues, but the details were handled by a junior guy or gal and they didn't last long in their jobs either.

The Sackett Companion, if memory serves, wasn't entirely written by Dad. Some of it was pulled together by Bantam Editors. Dad just wrote the bigger sections. I don't know if that means if he screwed up these details or if they did but it was a collective work. I tried to stay out of it and still generally ignore it because it was never as buttoned up as I'd have liked but I wasn't in a position to deal with it at the time. I was in school and working on other things.

Dad's work is definitely better if you just try to enjoy rather than analyze it ... at least until you get to the point where you are looking at it through the lens of publishing history or the life of a middle class author of the era.

When I go into the weeds of actual history, which the Western genre has never really been serious about, I get lost trying to work out all the issues with most Westerns. As much as Dad fought the distinction, it's a genre separate from Historical Novels because it has different rules ... it's kind of an American Fantasy like a lot of the "Fantasy" genre is sort of European Fantasy. Each relies on the basic history or conventions of one culture or the other, but each plays out tales of freedom and morality and exploration according to a different set of rules.

A good example of Westerns (in general) having only a general connection to history is the fact that classical or traditional westerns take place in a period that lasted less than 30 years. They often portray multiple generations growing up in this brief era. They tend to compress the history of earlier or later events to push them into this era. Odd, but that's what has happened. In the last 50 years the genre has expanded it's historical envelope slightly. Dad had something to do with that, and with getting the history to be a bit more accurate. But it wasn't something he wanted to do with every story. He also liked to play in the world of the traditional Western. He didn't think about it all that much, not like I do, he just sort of did it. Later in his career he didn't want to be tide down to traditional westerns, he occasionally wanted to play by the rules of Historical Novels, but he didn't worry about it all that much.

  

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john555Sat May-02-20 01:55 PM
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#4. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Beau, thanks very much for your response. It is very, very interesting. I would just like to add that, in my opinion, your dad through his books created a tapestry with characters bigger than life that described the settlement of a great nation. Not just the Wild West. Based on what you wrote, I think it all the more amazing that his story lines maintained as much of a sense of chronology as they do. It would be silly to expect it to be perfect. But part of the fun and enjoyment of reading his tapestry is looking for a chronology that can run from Tattan Chantry to Tom Chantry with all the Talons, Chancys, Chantrys, and Sacketts in between. And, maybe, just maybe , your dad inspired people to check out some of the historical facts and figures he sprinkled throughout his stories. I know I was. Was your dad another Steinbeck or Hemmingway? No, but he was sure a lot more fun and interesting to read. :-)

Justintime

  

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Tennessee DaveSat May-02-20 10:37 PM
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#5. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 4


          

I agree.

Tennessee Dave

"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God"
Author unknown

  

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Tennessee DaveSat May-02-20 10:46 PM
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#6. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Beau, if your Dad was still living and I told him Mr. L'Amour i just enjoy your books so very much.
What would be his comment? I mean would he say simply thank you, or perhaps throw his arms wide and say great. Or maybe, you're a good man Charlie Brown. So was there a usual reaction?

Tennessee Dave

"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God"
Author unknown

  

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Mike ShafferFri May-08-20 06:39 PM
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#7. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 6


          

TD....Somehow, you always have the craziest, gun slinging, shoot from the hip, best questions. I hope Beau gives this one some thought.

"We don't have any law here. Just a graveyard." LL from TREASURE MOUNTAIN

  

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Tennessee DaveFri May-08-20 07:15 PM
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#8. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Just thought Beau would get a smile out of that Charlie Brown crack.🐒

Tennessee Dave

"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God"
Author unknown

  

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blamourTue May-12-20 03:20 AM
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#9. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 6


          

I'm sure he'd just thank you. In this business you can't take too much responsibility for the reactions of others. They are actually making the experience of reading your work what it is as much as you are AND you can't get too close because some people will never let you go. It was always a hard call ... especially when there was work to be done.

  

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Tennessee DaveTue May-12-20 04:57 AM
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#10. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Yes, that celebrity thing is a hard thing to understand. I know you all think differently than your average person. It's a different world entirely. That's why your average person will forever scratch their head in wonder.
It's also, I think, something I generally do not understand.
Oh well, I can live free and easy. Maybe that's better.
Tell me, Beau, would you trade your life for the life of a seccessful unknown.
But many years ago Mickey Gilly(sp) told me when i asked him about how that life was for all those years, he told me, 'it's a ride you wouldn't believe.'
I guess there is that.




Tennessee Dave

"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God"
Author unknown

  

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blamourThu May-14-20 09:49 PM
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#11. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 10


          

Interesting.

From the other side I never thought if it as something hard to understand. Almost everyone has people who don't respect their time or that the relationship isn't as close in one direction as it is in the other. Think of a high school athlete or a pretty girl. Then there's the people who really want to be around those ever so slightly or momentarily special people.

Often the person who needs something from that relationship needs something that the "celebrity" person doesn't actually have to give. It is the non-celebrity who is saying that the "celebrity" is special after all. The "celebrity" is mostly just being themselves. So the non-celebrity both gives up some of their power to the celebrity by treating them (and not just their work) as special, and also tends to want that power back in the form of a certain sort of attention or acknowledgement from the celebrity.

It's complicated, and I'm just working this out as I'm writing it, but celebrities often feel that all these requirements and rules are coming from the minds of their audience yet it is THEY are required to play along. You're just dancing to the tune of others. Some really want to be a part of that dance, some don't. Some want it sometimes but then they also occasionally want to be left alone ... but to suggest that makes the non-celebrities pissed off. This is probably an unconscious reaction to the non celebrity realizing that they gave the celebrity the power to be famous in the first place.

The next step after the non celebrity begins resenting the power they gave away and wanting it back in the form of attention is stalking ... so people on both sides of the issue have to be careful because things can get weird and tragic quickly.

Not surprisingly this has been dealt with in movies quite a lot. Joker is a recent example but the Matt Damon version of The Talented Mr. Ripley is a better example. TTMR works because the character who is the object of undue interest or affection isn't a star of any sort, he's just a guy with a blessed lifestyle and a short attention span.

  

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Tennessee DaveThu May-14-20 10:23 PM
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#12. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 11


          

Wow, what an answer. I at first I thought the opening paragraph was an eye opener but as I read along it was an entirely good post.
Your insight made me think of FBI profilers. But it is a world you've been a part of on so many different levels.
To me it seems a life that's been a real chore at times, but at others, that yours has become a natural course of a life basically like any life, whatever it may be, that everyone on earth has to deal with, whatever their life may be. It is what it is. I am grateful for such a post.
Please correct me where I'm misguided.

Tennessee Dave

"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God"
Author unknown

  

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Mike ShafferThu May-14-20 11:12 PM
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#13. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 12


          

Good job, TD

Thank you Beau. Great insight.


"We don't have any law here. Just a graveyard." LL from TREASURE MOUNTAIN

  

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Tennessee DaveFri May-15-20 02:19 AM
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#14. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 13


          

One thing I forgot to mention is my being unable to watch The Talented Mr Ripley more than once.
It is a .movie that was so ... odd ... that I literally shuddered. I worked at a prison once and had to deal with murderers of all kinds. At times it was quite devastating. Of course l did not let them see this. I would usually tell them to go back to their cell as I had paperwork to do but look up their records on The computer and sure enough there it was, so many counts of murder and other atrocities. I would lean over like I was writing, but thinking, 'these people are nuts!'.
So, no, I don't watch TTMR.

Tennessee Dave

"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God"
Author unknown

  

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mesadelvadre8Tue Jun-23-20 01:46 PM
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#15. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I found the best chronology of Sackett Novels in the forward of 'Jubal Sackett'....Daybreakers circa 1870- 1872.

Blainemcqueen

  

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john555Mon Aug-17-20 06:09 PM
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#16. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 15


          

Based on my reading of the novels, there are questionable placements on the list from “Jubal Sackett”. Up to “The Daybreakers”, it matches up pretty much with the order suggested on this website. I would suggest that the order given on this website is pretty good with three exceptions. Maybe I get a little too deep in the weeds or too OC or over analytical, but I am just trying to look at what LL wrote.
I believe the order after “The Daybreakers” should be as follows:
“The Daybreakers” - Actually covers from 1867 to 1872. See Chapter 3 comment about the Santa Fe Trail.
“The Man From The Broken Hills” – Probably between “The Daybreakers” and “Lando”. This one is a little tricky. In Chapter 1, he talks of riding the outlaw trail for the last 3 years. Based on info in other novels, it is a pretty good guess that Milo joined the Confederacy in 1865 at the age of 17. He had probably been riding the outlaw trail since the end of the war which would place this story at 1868.
“Lando”
“Mustang Man” – Most lists put this tale somewhere after “The Sackett Brand”. However, I believe it actually belongs just before “Sackett”. In Chapter 14 of “Mustang Man”, Nolan rides into a camp and tells the campers that he is headed for Mora to visit some kin named Sackett. The camp riders state that they haver heard of the Sacketts in Mora but do not make any reference to Tyrel as the Mora gunfighter which indicates that this tale may take place prior to 1872 which is when Tyrel had the shootout with Tom Sunday and became known as the Mora gunfighter. More telling is Chapter 15 in which Nolan meets Ollie Shaddock in a cantina in Loma Parde. Ollie was in “The Daybreakers”. Ollie talks of bringing Tyrel’s family to New Mexico which was prior to the end of “The Daybreakers” in 1872. Nolan responds that he does not know Tyrel or Orrin but has heard of them. This places this story before “The Sackett Brand” in 1877 because Tyrel, Orrin, and Nolan were all at the final shootout in “The Sackett Brand”. Also, Nolan does not mention knowing Tell which implies that this tale must take place prior to “Mojave Crossing” when Tell first meets up with Nolan as also mentioned in “The Sackett Brand” Chapter 16. So, the information found in Chapters 14 and 15 place “The Mustang Man” prior to “Mojave Crossing” and “The Sackett Brand” and the conversation in the camp in Chapter 14 indicates it was no later than 1873 and probably earlier in 1871 or 1872 prior to “Sackett”.
“Sackett”
“Mojave Crossing”
“The Sackett Brand”
“The Skyliners”
“Galloway” - This novel should fit between “The Skyliners” and “The Lonely Men” both of which are likely set in 1877. In “Galloway”, Flagan finds the wolf-dog that starts to follow him around. This novel covers a period about 70 days just over half way through 1877. If you include “Milo Talon” as a Sackett book, it would follow immediately after “Galloway” and could be taking place about the same time as “The Lonely Men” which would be late 1877. “Milo Talon” would follow “Galloway” because Milo refers to a cousin followed around by a wolf.
“Milo Talon”
“The Lonely Men”
“Ride the Dark Trail”
“Treasure Mountain”
“Lonely on the Mountain”
I think some books fill the same time slots but with different characters on different adventures. “Ride the Dark Trail” and “Treasure Mountain” are two such. This is to say they are very close if not the same time chronologically speaking. “The Warrior’s Path” and “Jubal Sackett” are two others like this. “The Man From the Broken Hills” and “Lando” could also be concurrent when they begin. “Milo Talon” and “The Lonely Men” could also be concurrent tales. There is no reason that two or more tales cannot be taking place at the same time as long as the characters do not show in two different places at the same time.
I have also included the two Milo Talon novels in this list. I read somewhere that LL envisioned the families as interacting in various ways over time. But, he also wrote in the “Companion” that he wanted to make the Talon and Chantry novels as separate series and did not want to consider them as Sackett novels. However, I think he had already let the cow out of the barn. In the final shootout in “Milo Talon” with John Topp, Milo tells Topp that he, Topp, was up against a Sackett because his mother was a Sackett. LL had already created a number of instances where the families were related and where they simply interacted like in “Borden Chantry”.

Justintime

  

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SailBoatMon Aug-17-20 10:46 PM
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#17. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 16


          

WOW !!!!! That's too much for me to wrap my brain around.

  

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john555Tue Aug-18-20 12:39 AM
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#18. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 17


          

We can boil it down to 3 sentences.
1. It's really hard to separate Milo Talon from the Sacketts which means his books should be included. (The Chantry's too actually.)
2. "Mustang Man" should precede "Sackett" in the chronological order.
3. "Galloway should follow "The Skyliners".
The rest just says why. Sorry about the weeds.

Justintime

  

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john555Tue Aug-18-20 11:26 AM
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#19. "RE: Time Periods of Novels"
In response to Reply # 17


          

I know it sounds strange. I think it's sort of strange. I mean LL used 4 novels to reveal a timeline for "Milo Talon" and "Galloway".
In "Ride A Dark Trail", LL tells the reader that Milo was 17 when he joined the Confederate Army. In "Milo Talon", the reader is told that Milo is at a point that "soon would be thirty years of living". That means he cannot be older than 29 which would be 12 years after he joined the army. Then, the question is, what year did he join the army. That's where "The Sackett Brand" and "Galloway" come in. We know that "The Sackett Brand" happens in 1877 because that is the year that Tell puts on Ange's grave. Then, in "Galloway", we find the "cousin" who is followed around by a wolf that Milo mentions in "Milo Talon". This means that Milo Talon cannot be placed before 1877 because of the wolf reference and because Galloway cannot precede "The Sackett Brand" because of all the Sacketts that Flagan and Galloway had come to know in "The Sackett Brand". But "Galloway" has to precede "Milo Talon" because of the wolf reference. And, the year cannot be after 1877 because then the 12 year difference between 29 years of age and 17 would mean that Milo would have benn 17 after the war was over in 1865.
Yes, it's strange but it is also clever when you consider the year the books were published. "Sackett Brand" was published in 1965 which set the year this is all built around. "Galloway" was published in 1970 which established the wolf story. "Ride a Dark Trail" was published in 1972 which set the age when Milo joined the army. And, "Milo Talon" was published in 1981 which brought it all together.

Justintime

  

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